James Rhee: The Red Helicopter and the Human Element of Success - Part 1

 This week, I'm privileged to share an enriching conversation with James Rhee, the transformative leader who authored "Red Helicopter:  Lead Change with Kindness (Plus a Little Math)."  In our latest episode of Better Place Project, we traverse the landscape of societal evolution, dissect the true measure of success, and unveil the human side of business often obscured by balance sheets. James, with his unique blend of empathy and analytical precision, provides us with a roadmap for systemic change, drawing wisdom from lessons learned from his parents, the gift of a red helicopter, and the historic turnaround of Ashley Stewart, a plus-size women's clothing chain.

The journey to a meaningful life is often laced with childhood truths and the legacies we inherit. This episode peels back the layers of Rhee's personal anecdotes, from the formidable women who've shaped his path to the discomfort with societal elitism. It's a contemplative voyage through the principles that govern a balanced life, where intuition trumps comparison, and the scalability of teaching business concepts becomes apparent. The narrative extends an invitation to listeners, especially the youth and those at life's crossroads, to find meaning in daily work and to embrace success as a deeply human endeavor.

We close with a powerful call to action: to nurture kindness in the face of adversity and to understand the complex dance of societal challenges.  Rhee's father's compassionate legacy as a pediatrician and entrepreneur echoes throughout this episode, guiding our discussion on leadership, feedback, and the quiet wisdom of kind business practices. It's not just about the hard-hitting economics; it's the unquantifiable moments of life that bring us together. 

So join us on this journey, be moved by the stories, and let’s commit to treating each other with kindness, fostering a world that hopefully we will leave someday, better than we found it.

To learn more about James, and to order his new book, please visit:
RedHelicopter.com

To learn more about the Cure Alzheimer's Fund, please visit:
https://curealz.org/

Follow James at:
Instagram: @IamJamesRhee

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https://www.betterplaceproject.org/

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@SteveNorrisOfficial

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Transcript

Steve: 0:00

Coming up on Better Place Project.

James: 0:02

How about just also societal slash, collateral impact? There are a lot of ways in which our society today is better than it was 50-something years ago. Right, I'm 53, and the book sort of looks at 1971 to 2024. Are we better off in other ways Suicide, mental health, loneliness, national debt, stock ownership, distribution, home ownership, distribution, hate. Are we better off? And how are we measuring that? Because GDP it doesn't capture that. So I just know, speaking more on a personal level. So I just know, speaking more on a personal level, the type of life that I want to have. I buried both my parents, and this is not profound, I mean, we all know this. I've seen the end of life. I've seen it and I don't want to die in a way that is embarrassing to my children, like I want my children to experience what I did, which was for them to say you know my dad, he was a decent man. Make the world a better place.

Steve: 1:18

Make the world a better place. Hey, hey, I'm Steve Norris. Hey, hey, I'm Steve Norris. Welcome to Better Place Project, where each week, we shine a light on amazing humans from every corner of the planet who are doing extraordinary things to help make the world a better place, including sharing their knowledge with us on how we can be living healthier, happier, more purposeful lives. Hey everybody, welcome to episode 187. I'm going to just come out and say it. This is going to go down as one of my favorite conversations of all time with just an extraordinary human who's written an extraordinary book. That absolutely just blew me away.

Steve: 2:08

But before we jump into that, a quick reminder that we are bringing you this episode ad-free no ads in the beginning, no ads in the middle and no ads in the end Completely ad-free and uninterrupted. In return, we would really appreciate it if you would please just follow us and subscribe to make sure you get new episodes each week. And if you like what we're doing, please give us a five-star rating and consider giving us even a one-sentence review, as that helps us get the word out to more good humans. If you're on an iPhone listening on Apple Podcasts, simply go to our homepage, scroll down about eight or nine episodes and you'll see five stars. Click on the star on the right and boom, you've given us a five-star review. If you scroll down just an inch or two further, you'll see write a review. Click on that and enter your review and click send. That's, it Only takes a second, and that second that you take to do that means the world to us. Okay, back to it. Wow, do we have a special episode today? In fact, this conversation was so incredible that we ran out of time recording it and we hopped on the phone a few days later and we completed the conversation at that time and, rather than just edit this down to a normal length episode, it's just so full of many good nuggets, some information, that I didn't want to slice any of that out that we decided to break it into a two-part series this week and next week. And who is this special guest I could not be more honored to bring you today? Mr James Rhee.

Steve: 3:58

James Rhee is a former high school teacher and Harvard Law School graduate who became a private equity investor and, unexpectedly, an acclaimed CEO. He bridges math with emotions by marrying capital with purpose, while composing systems that bridge people's disciplines and ideas. His transformational leadership has been recognized by leading civic and business organizations. His brand new book that is out today, by the way, is entitled Red Helicopter A Parable for Our Times. Lead Change with Kindness Plus a Little Math. James is working on related film, music and television projects as well. His TED Talk and Dare to Lead interview with Brene Brown have captured the imagination of millions.

Steve: 4:47

James' leadership grabbed global attention during his unlikely seven-year tenure as chairman and first-time CEO at Ashley Stewart, a fashion retailer with deep historical roots in the Black American community. After the financial community turned its back on this twice bankrupt company, james left the world of private equity and led the creation of a reimagined ecosystem that blurred boundaries and centered kindness and math, a combination that fueled an unprecedented transformation and transcendent success story. Core to the reinvention was the deep friendship and shared values between the son of Korean immigrants and a predominantly black female employee group, who placed their mutual trust in each other, learned from one another and then proceeded to quietly shock the world. This episode has been about a year in the making and with this just freakishly different, unique, inspiring book. Guys, I shed some tears reading this book and it's just come out. It's out now. Like I said, comes out today, if you're listening to this on the day.

Steve: 6:01

This episode published on April 9th, but it just made sense for James and I to have this conversation now, a conversation and a book that we both just feel is so needed right now. Guys, I truly hope that this episode just gets you thinking thinking about how you do your job, how you run your company, how you treat the people closest to you in your life, how you show up in the world, because it sure got me thinking, and just so much more that I got out of this book and from this conversation. So, without further ado, now I bring you part one of my conversation with the one and only James Rhee. Welcome to the show, james. Thanks so much for being here.

James: 6:58

I love being here, Steve. I've been looking forward to this for like a year now, right.

Steve: 7:03

Yeah, we have been talking about knocking this out and I'm just so excited we're finally doing it. In fact, the first thing I would say is I'd like to set an intention and we can co-set this. You let me know any alterations, but I'd like to set an intention that we co-create something. If we go on a tangent, we do it, but really in the spirit of this book, to just put out a ripple of kindness and hopefully some inspiration because I know I was so inspired from reading this book and just throw it out into the ether and have some fun today.

James: 7:38

How does that sound Totally? I know you're a music guy, so let's just sing a duet. It's a piece of music.

Steve: 7:43

As are you Perfect, I love it, we will sing a proverbial duet. So, with that said, can we kick it off with? Your mom and dad, as you talk about in this book, are first generation Korean Americans, and they were baffled one day to learn that you were given a toy at school and they didn't quite understand why. Can you talk a little bit about what that toy was, which is also the name of this book that we're going to be talking about today? And I believe you were five years old, correct?

James: 8:15

Yeah, so yeah, for me it was a literal red helicopter and for you and your listeners it's a metaphoric red helicopter because I think we all have one. It might not be an actual red helicopter, but, yeah, I came home from school public school, long Island bowl cut. You know you have to picture big dimples and sort of holding this like analog toy red helicopter that you used to get in like a five and dime with the plastic wrapping. You know that sort of thing. And they were confused why I got it. And it was just a series, uh sequence of like misunderstandings, of somehow thinking something was wrong. So did you take it from school? No, did we screw up and not understand american customs and you should have given toys to all your five-year-old public school kids. No, mom and dad, you didn't screw up this one, but we're all right. And they got sort of.

James: 9:10

I think my dad in particular was a little bit frustrated that I didn't know why this. I kept saying a family came in to give it to me. A family came in to give Came into your school, yeah, and just, they came into school that morning and I just kept saying that and I was five right, so I was nervous. I'm like a family came in a family came in.

James: 9:29

I kept saying that and anyway they found out why I got it. I didn't know how to articulate why. They gave me the toy. Um and uh, they found out later that I had been sharing you know, my mom's like meticulously crafted lunch with this boy. And they called me in and told me that and I said and they asked me why, why are you sharing your lunch? And I thought I was in trouble again and it turned out I wasn't in trouble, it's.

James: 10:00

I didn't know this, but my friend didn't have lunch oftentimes because his mom had died that summer and I didn't know that. I mean, I was five and anyway. So the dad had come in, it wasn't the whole family, it was the dad and a few of his siblings and they just handed me the red helicopter and they didn't say anything. It was more, it was like an act of appreciation, without belaboring the point. And I was again, and they just did it very in a classy way.

James: 10:32

I just remember, and I remember being kind of an idiot and running around the classroom excited I got a toy, yeah, but the meaning of it you know, as the book you know talks about just it stuck with me as such, a moment of not just kindness which kindness is part of what I'm about to say it's intuitive wisdom that's beyond education, beyond learning, it just is in us, and that such simple things. As you get older, it can be so hard and you start rationalizing things that are so obvious. He didn't have lunch. He was my friend. I had enough. We're good, yeah.

Steve: 11:13

Yeah, and you talked about that. You're even worried that, my gosh, did you offend your mom, that you gave away this wonderful lunch. That was she upset with you as well. It's amazing what goes through a five-year-old's head.

James: 11:26

Yeah, and like and yeah, it's like a, it was an abundance mindset, right like now we use that term and like fancy talk and say, wow, you had such an abundant mindset even though there was, you know, a little bit of scarcity at home. It wasn't easy for the Ree family in 1976. But yeah, even though we didn't have a lot, I just felt very abundant.

Steve: 11:54

I don't know, and we're going to talk a little bit later about how that red helicopter kind of flies back into your life, so to speak, later on in your career. So let's jump forward. You graduate college, you go off to Harvard, go to law school and you end up in investment banking, flying private jets, living a good life, but way off in the memory. Is this proverbial or literal?

James: 12:23

red helicopter.

Steve: 12:25

Can you talk a little bit about that part of your life? So here you're now having financial success, but there was a but there. Can you share a little bit about that?

James: 12:38

Yeah, I'll riff off of what you just said. I'm not necessarily sure it was quote a good life. There were parts of it that were, you know, conventionally defined good life, like I finally was out from underneath a large six figure student debt load. Yeah, um, you know I had quote uh, prestige, my resume was fancy and like, yeah, private jets they can be cool sometimes I guess I was learning the hard way about the systems of money.

James: 13:13

It's like, not like I grew up with money, I didn't know how money worked and so, yeah, I was in private equity here in Boston in a pretty tall building doing some pretty cool things, but inside I was learning, right, I'm like, ah, this is the environment of some of the highest echelons of money, and I was there. Right, this is the culture of money, these are the goals of this money. And I'm a student of systems. So I was like, ah, the way money is organized. I'm like, ah, it provides these type of incentives for people who control money to make certain decisions. And you have to remember before that I was a after college. I taught high school for $12,600 a year.

Steve: 13:55

Yeah, we were going to circle back to that, but yeah, for a couple of years, correct?

James: 13:59

Yeah, for two years I went to law school thinking I would be a public defender yeah, and in college I studied civics basically right, like how people behave, and ethics and philosophy and the classics, and so it was just for me, a learning experience. I really enjoy investing money because it is you're making wagers on opinions about the future and I like doing that. Sure, and I loved private equity parts of it because you're creating companies. I loved helping inflection point companies, like when people are stuck lots of people you have to eat. You earn a living. I didn't like some of the other parts of private equity and the industry has obviously evolved a lot even more since I was doing it full time.

Steve: 14:48

So if we could jump now to the book for a moment and I would like to, if I could read a quick passage from the book early on, and you wrote quote through the pages of this book I hope you give yourself permission to look at the business of life and the life of business in a different way, to perhaps rediscover or rethink a few of your perceptions and perspectives, to find comfort in our shared connectedness and reassurance about its potential for positivity and growth. This isn't a self-help book and it isn't a business book, and at the same time it's both. Nor is a book about music or philosophy or leadership or the meaning of loyalty or what it means to lose your parents, though we will brush up against all those subjects and more. Maybe this book is best described as a celebration of humanity, and you went on to write. I love that passage. You went on to write, but at its core, this is a story of how the simplest truths that we knew as children can change the trajectory of our lives and, yes, even our business, and how, for maybe both life and business, true success centers around balance, balancing life, money and joy through the creation and measurement of goodwill and all the connectedness that comes with it.

Steve: 16:11

Now, when you wrote this book, did you know, because I'm just going to throw this out there? This is a special, special book and, as we talked about before I hit recording, I'm a student of business books and I'm an entrepreneur. I started two companies from scratch and built them up into multi-million dollar companies, and so I've lived and breathed for a better part of my 20s, 30s, early 40s of how to grow companies and how to increase your EBITDA and all the things about business. But what I never really was doing and don't get me wrong, I loved my teams and I always believed in treating people really well. But the humanity and to go in with kind of that attitude first and foremost is something that I wish I had had this book when I was 25 years old and learned this early on, especially when you talk about how this is just good for business and we're going to talk about the Ashley Stewart story.

Steve: 17:17

So this book hasn't even come out. Well, it's going to come out. It will be out for those listeners listening. It's coming out April 9th and we're publishing this episode on April 9th, but James and I are talking to you from the past a couple weeks before that. So what are your thoughts now on having written this book and throwing it out there? Are you scared, are you excited? Do you feel like this is something really special?

James: 17:47

like this is something really special. I think after going through this book writing process, it's more a feeling of beleaguerment. It's hard to write a book. It really has been hard, because it's a lot of soul search and you have to be really honest about yourself and about your life. I write that In this book. I am not the protagonist of this book. There it's my mother. It's the women that reminded me of who she was. It's those women.

James: 18:14

And it's all of these friends who made sure that I showed up as the better form of me more often than not. Like those are the protagonists. I'm sort of like the stumbling Odysseus a little bit and trying to find his way, and so I'm excited because I think the way it's written, I hope that it will be relatable to anyone who's lost a parent, who is at an inflection point in their life, who is starting a business, who's at a point where they are wondering what the meaning of all this is. There are plenty of people in this country and the world who are scared right now and unsettled, worried, and the tone of the book it's not one of prescription or you know, you have to learn these things. The tone is how I like to be spoken to is sort of just, I think you know more than you think actually, and you're better than you think. You're being told that you're not as good by comparing yourself to all the ridiculous things on instagram and right, like we're being told that you're not as good by comparing yourself to all the ridiculous things on Instagram and right, like we're being told you don't know. Here are the five things you have to know. You don't know and I'm saying I think that you know it more intuitively than you think and I can see you doing it in different parts of your life already. So those parts of your life that are the best, why not apply them in your work life too? They would work.

James: 19:53

So I'm excited, you know. I hope that it helps people. And thank you for saying what you said about being 25 years old. You know that I'm spending a significant amount of my time right now in classrooms at college, business school and law schools, because I said to myself I have no business writing this book if I can't also teach it in an academic setting. Also teach it in an academic setting. I know I can teach in the private sector, in real life business. That I've done but it's not scalable if you can't teach it pedagogically in a classroom. And so I'm excited for the younger people because I wish I had this book too, and I wish I had it well before I lost both my parents, actually.

Steve: 20:36

Well, well, yeah, and we're going to talk about that in a little while and I know that your dad had Parkinson's as well and you talk very openly throughout the book about that. Before we jump to that, because you were just talking about that, you want this, having come up through Harvard, but you want this book to be able to be teachable, not only in the private world and to business and to individuals, but in the classroom as well. But you talk in the book that you don't want to be defined by Harvard and at your graduation you saw a sign that said in fact, tell us about that story where you saw a sign that said welcome to the fellowship of educated men and women, and what was your reaction to that sign?

James: 21:21

Yeah, and it's not a sign, it's actually what they say, like it's almost oh, is that right?

Steve: 21:25

Okay, I thought it was a sign, as you're coming into your graduation ceremony.

James: 21:29

No, that would be even worse, but it was bad. Oh, okay, they said that's funny. But they would say, you know, sort of that expression welcome to the society of educated men and women. I'm sure I'm positive that a long time ago it was just educated men, right, but so they added women. Sure, yeah, I just, I don't know Like I it was, it's. It strikes me as elitist.

Steve: 21:56

Yeah, I just.

James: 21:57

I don't like it. I think the whole point of life is that you get more informed so you develop agency. But there is a wisdom that cannot be taught other than through life experience, practical experience, and a lot of Buddhist monks talk about a layer of that wisdom that are beyond. Quote wisdom it's like innate. It's innate wisdom, it's a knowing. It's like prana right, it's like that knowing you just know, and that's why I wrote in the book. It's like the only thing I know that I'm confident in anymore.

James: 22:32

After 53 years of doing a lot of crazy things in different countries, meeting so many incredible people in different cultures. I know what kindness is, which I try to explain in the book, and I know what math is. Those two things are always, always right and they're always the same, like in any culture, any age group. We all know what they are. So, yeah, I didn't love it. And because up until then, you know, up until the age 18, I was a public school kid from Long Island, first person in his family born in this country. I had very little expectations or I was happy, actually, like I was learning a lot. Public school, love playing sports, love music, love going to school, had tons of friends and you know Harvard, that brand, that credential, it was a tough thing for an 18 year old boy like me to wield.

James: 23:33

Correctly, it was heavy right it was almost overwhelming a little bit, just, and I was like so what? I got into the school? I got some good grades, I did well on a stupid standardized test and I got some good recs right Great, does this define me for the rest of my life? And, by the way, so what you know, what I do with this in my life is what matters. So what you know, what I do with this in my life is what matters.

Steve: 23:59

So what? Sure. So you graduate and rather than like so many of your peers and your friends, rather than go off and get some high profile, high paying job, you decide to go be a school teacher. And so can you talk about that little two-year window in your life.

James: 24:20

Yeah, looking back, I think it was a little bit of an act of resistance to sort of being channeled into a preordained path and becoming a cog.

Steve: 24:32

A little bit of a rubble in you.

James: 24:34

Yeah, a little. Bartleby the Scrivener. I'm like you know, herman Melville, I prefer not to. I'm like you know, I'm going to go. I don't want to be a monkey in a cubicle doing, I just don't.

Steve: 24:44

Not now. And I think, james, this was the intuition that was inside of you that felt called, just like the five-year-old that felt called to. I'm going to boy my sandwich If I called to. No, I don't want to go do what everyone else is doing. I want to. This feels right to me. You maybe didn't know why, maybe you thought.

Steve: 25:05

I want to give back a little bit and I don't need to go make a six figure salary, you know. But um, yeah, how was that experience for you? What? What level were you teaching? It was high school, high school. What level were you teaching it?

James: 25:15

was high school, I believe High school and it was. You know, I'm intentionally not a quote fancy like well, well, big endowment school. It was a struggling school and it was a mix of people. And I wrote in the book that our baseball team, like I think our uniforms may have been, they must have been like 15 years old, yeah.

Steve: 25:40

You talk about that.

James: 25:41

And they were like this remember the heavy, like you know, the potato sack.

Steve: 25:45

That's what I wore in the league, by the way. Yeah, it was like burlap almost.

James: 25:49

No, I couldn't come up with it. Yeah, yeah.

Steve: 25:52

I grew up in Illinois where it's humid and you're out there trying to play in that burlap sack, yeah and like it slows you down, you can't like anyway.

James: 26:02

And so it was. I just, it's been a pattern in my life where it's related to the question you asked me about the Harvard commencement. I tend to figure things out. I'm like, oh, got it, it wasn't as hard as people said it was. It's meant to intimidate people, it's meant to scare people off. And so I do something, I decipher it, I deconstruct it, and then I say, why didn't you just tell people and teach it this way? It's so simple. It's even by this. It's been a pattern and so that was part of why I chose that school.

James: 26:35

I'm sure that factored in that he found me and he wrote on. You know, mr Rhee, it's been. You know, it's been whatever was for 30 years, 35 years, since I was in your class. But anytime I am procrastinating or feeling like I'm not doing my best, I think of you. Wow, and he just said anytime you come on the west coast, look me up. I would love to reconnect which I'm going to. His name is josh and I saw that post and um, I'm grateful and it. You know, and I'm grateful for my teachers, my public school teachers in particular. They took very good care of me.

Steve: 27:35

They really yeah, I come from a family of school teachers. My mom was a school teacher, four or five of my siblings are school teachers or were, and and that's one thing that school teachers, perhaps more than any other profession have such have have have so many opportunities to change the life forever. One little word spoken in a classroom to a teacher or to a student that can make them feel and believe themselves and can burn an imprint into their psyche. What a beautiful thing, 30, 35 years later, to have him think of you when. So you probably don't remember even what you may have said to him all those years ago, but you motivated him to be disciplined, to not be lazy to you know, and it stuck with him. So, wow, no, that's exciting. I look forward to hearing how that goes when you reconnect with them.

James: 28:38

Yeah, I think that's part of the best teachers I write about, like some people sometimes ask me, like you know, give us an example of kindness, real kindness, not random acts and the YouTube stuff. It's really, to me, the best example is it's teachers, because you are the best teachers. You're asking people to be the best versions of themselves, not you and not unrealistic things, just the best version of them, and that is a very high standard and there are very few people who want that for you. And when you meet those people, you often say I used to say this, I didn't want to disappoint that teacher or that coach. Sure. And then they say to you as did I, yeah.

James: 29:31

I really want the coach and the teacher to like us and that we want to please Sure yeah and they say to you there's like you shouldn't be pleasing me, like don't disappoint yourself, and I think that's what leadership is in its highest form. That is what leadership is, I would agree. I think the only the other person that I speak about a lot about exemplifying that was obviously my like the letters that my patients wrote to my father.

Steve: 29:57

My dad was tremendous, wow that's a very powerful part of the book. Yeah, yep, and your father was a pediatrician as well and we talked about him a moment ago. And so here was somebody that gave his life of service and the kindness that you talk about that he showed throughout the book, james, that on a Saturday or Sunday running into the office to help somebody, and that if a family couldn't afford to pay, that was okay, he still treated them, but he would always make it home in time for dinner. And then you talk about Parkinson's. Can you share a little bit about what that was like? Going through that journey with him as his son and seeing your dad you know who is this powerful, you know figure in your life and then see a disease like that?

James: 30:48

Just I can't imagine how that must have been for your entire family was difficult because my dad and I as I think a lot of men do we didn't have the language of expressing emotion as developed as it could have been, and I hope that this book actually helps some readers, particularly, I think, male readers, that to have a language of what it, just what you feel, which is, if we don't have that, we will continue to see very unhappy mental statistics and loneliness for men, which we're all seeing right now, it's sad.

Steve: 31:26

For sure.

James: 31:28

Yeah, my dad, you know my dad. He took care of people, like he just had very high standards about how you were supposed to treat people and he was had very high standards about how you are supposed to treat people. And he was very hard on me at times, right, because he would say, I don't care about your grades, achievements and things which he did, by the way, as well because he wanted me to have a better life than he did. He struggled a lot in this country. He did, he struggled a lot in this country, and he wanted me to sort of create positive externalities. To use an economics term for society.

James: 32:02

Just said how much value are you really creating, james, in private equity, are you? And so those are the two things I really struggled to reconcile. It's like money is part of a way to affect change and create value. And and how do you do it? With the lens of a high school teacher, can you do both? And I think that you know sadly I'm not, I think, ashley stewart what I did there with the women there, um, was I was able to finally reconcile both and, sadly, my dad was in a condition where he was not cognitively able to understand that. That's what this was, after 40-something years at the time, to be able to say to my father. Dad, I really listened and I watched and I think I figured it out. What do you think?

Steve: 33:00

Like, are you?

James: 33:01

proud of this and I included a few things in the book, not to spoil the book, because it's an emotional part of the book, but just because you asked me about Josh and the former high school student. But just if you think about the parallels, you know, like I'm 42 years old, this is after my father died. I'm 42 years old and 3,000 miles away and I can still smell Dr Rhee and feel his soft face while hugging me. Wow, you know, he brought calm and grace into the room. I've never met his equal. He was very loved. And then you know, no finer man was ever born and no finer doctor.

James: 33:40

My dad was also an entrepreneur.

James: 33:42

He set up a small business with a shingle without speaking the language, and he created so much goodwill in his private practice when a lot of the practices were unsellable because medicines changed, his practice actually sold.

James: 33:58

So I know that you have listeners who are also entrepreneurs and small business owners. Sure they were very few practices that sold in 2006 other than my father's and people bought his practice. So the going concern, value. There was going concern, value and these quotes like this my dad did not separate who he was as a man and who he was as a doctor running a small practice, and that's the lesson that he imparted upon me and it was very hard for me to wreck to to do that and then I think I think I got close to doing that in my 40s, you know, to understanding yeah yeah, well, both your dad and your mom are, and you really, in the book you really tie the connection of of the lessons from your mom and the lessons that you learn working with these amazing women at Ashley Stewart and we're going to talk a lot more about that in a moment as well.

Steve: 35:06

But can we take a pause and go back and I apologize, I know we're jumping all over my actual. You do a way better job in the book than I do. My notes are actually in chronological order of the book and I thought you know what. I'm just going to keep them in that order rather than but you do a wonderful job of jumping back to your past and tying it into the particular chapter or topic that you're speaking of in the book. But you mentioned in your childhood you had a nearing incident at your friend Joel's house, at his pool, and in this incident you mentioned the word palania. Yeah, can you share with us what is palania, as you use it as a metaphor throughout the entire book and it's been a metaphor throughout your life.

James: 35:58

Yeah, and you may be right on the pronunciation I say Polinia, but oh, polinia. No, you say Polinia I wasn't sure.

Steve: 36:06

I wasn't sure, so I Googled it.

James: 36:09

Yeah.

Steve: 36:10

And just to see, and I found like four or five YouTube videos that had Polinia, yeah, like four or five, uh, like you know, youtube videos that had palenya, yeah, cool, who knows. But that's the only. Because I had no clue either, james. So I so I googled it and that's what what I what I found, but I could be right so palenya is what it is.

James: 36:28

It's like uh, it's a russian word, it's a picture visually, uh, a sea of completely frozen over water, of ice, and that palinia is like that. In the center there's a little, sometimes not little, but a circle of water. It's the unfrozen water surrounded by ice, and it's where you fish, or perhaps, if you're submerged underneath the ice, it's your way out. It's an aperture to freedom, actually, and I think about that a lot, and I think a lot of people right now in the world and in all of us, at various points in our lives, you feel like you're drowning For many reasons personal, professional, your own expectations, others. And it's ironic because water is very nurturing, right, like we need it, it's the lifeblood of our existence. Very nurturing, right, like we needed it, the lifeblood of our existence. It just shows you that sometimes, like the most important assets are real liabilities too, you can drown in water same way like that.

James: 37:46

It's a symbol of freedom to live, but yeah it's a symbol of like freedom, of clarity and sort of a way out that's, you took the words right out of my mouth.

Steve: 37:58

Sort of like a passageway, a light in the darkness to guide you out. Portal. I thought that was a beautiful metaphor.

James: 38:06

Yeah, like a portal.

Steve: 38:07

Exactly.

James: 38:08

It's like the wardrobe in Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe, I think, for me, in many ways, red Helicopter for me, tangibly, it's been my portal, it's a. I think about it when I am feeling perplexed, confused, when I'm maybe not making the best decisions, when I'm mad, right, unnecessarily. I'm not, I'm just, it's the emotions, are your reactions to things right, like people will behave in certain ways and like your decision about how to react to that that's yours, that's agent, right. So I think about the red helicopter in those contexts when I'm like, am I making the best decision? You know it's, and oftentimes the right decision is not to make any decision, like, just to just be can you talk about the korean word nunchi?

Steve: 39:03

yeah, did I pronounce that right, by the way?

James: 39:06

this one, I'm this one, I'm definitive this one's nunchi oh, nunchi, thank you.

Steve: 39:11

Okay, I'm over two so far.

James: 39:12

No, no, no, I can prove my record yeah, there's no reason why you should be fluent in korean, because I'm not either. Um, nunchi is uh, it's a distinctly korean term. It's literally meant. It literally means eye speed, and so what nunchi is is it's high speed, rapid, intuitive processing that you can walk into a room and you can say something like this Like two weeks ago people had an argument in here, I can feel it or you can go into a room and sort of say, oh, those two people are don't like each other, those three people have a quiet alliance and that person is the trustworthy one, and it's sort of just, it's that sort of intuition yeah, my dog's going nuts.

James: 40:01

Um, so that's what nunchi is like, I think, what's happening in our world, uh, and you have to be careful right, you can be wrong, intuition can be wrong sure it sort of the same balance between wisdom and education that I think, though sometimes now we are over relying on deduction, particularly, I think, in like Western society, where everything has to be quantified, everything If it's not quantifiable, it's not true. Right Zero or one has to be zero, one, and we've taken it to an extreme right. Zero or one has to be zero, or one and we've taken it to an extreme right, Like the way you behave at work or in life. Is it quantifiably good? Okay, well, I don't think so, then that's not provable, you can't do it, we're heading into that place. So I think the book is a call to action, about also reminding people there are certain things in life you know it's right, do it.

Steve: 41:00

So that's what nunchi is, it's intuition I love that, and you told some some really beautiful and heartfelt stories about circling back to your parents right now for a moment, being korean immigrants not speaking much english, and just everything they had to go through for you know, you and the family. But a story that I love that made me laugh out loud in the book was when you tell the story about that you had been saving your money up to buy a denim jacket.

James: 41:32

Yeah.

Steve: 41:34

And what your mom disclosed to you after you had bought the jacket.

James: 41:38

Yeah, she thought I was saying I want a damn jacket, mom, you know, and I'm like oh, no, mom. And then when she saw the denim jacket, she was like oh, that's what you meant.

Steve: 41:50

That's what you've been saying. But yeah, you talk in the book about like for weeks leading up to it yeah, mom, I'm saving my money, I just want a denim jacket. And she's like wow, he's just. You know. But she but she was disappointed in you, but didn't say anything. She was disappointed. That why is james?

James: 42:04

swearing. Exactly. Never do that. I just would never do that. She's like why is he so passionate about this freaking jacket? And we used to laugh and laugh and laugh about it. But like a lot of things in life and you know, like joy and suffering, it's bitter, it's a bittersweet story, it's even though it's funny. It shows you the there was lots of subtlety of miscommunication that I had growing up and I I had to over like compensate actually for it and I think in the run it's like a lot of our struggles. It made me a better communicator in the long term because I watch people about how they receive what I'm saying. It's more important how it's heard than it is what I said. Right, you can say something brilliant and if it's not received well, who cares? Or you could say something like as a compliment but if someone receives it as an insult, does it matter that?

Steve: 43:02

you thought it's an insult. It's an insult yeah.

James: 43:05

So I think kindness is like that. It's not your, your action, it's how it's received. And if you think about it from a business perspective and we spend a lot of time using very complicated language like user experience and ux and design thinking, um, ugi and all these acronyms I'm like fundamentally, isn't it life about how people receive, isn't it? And it's the communication.

Steve: 43:31

So I well, yeah, and, and on that topic, this isn't in my notes, but you, I just had a flashback of another story in the book where your mom had gone to a store and she couldn't think of the word I don't remember, like anti-dust or rust. Anti-rust spray from my basketball hoop was just rude to her and you were a kid. And he said, take me to that store. And you went running in there and gave this guy a, an earful um in defense of your mom.

James: 44:02

Um, another great story I was going to a fistfight with a employee of a hardware store who was twice my size. I just I just said it was, so I just was like. I still have that in me. As you know, I don't like people who make other people feel small. Yeah, I don't, and I've gotten better. Instead of being mad, I have more sympathy toward those people. So instead of saying you shouldn't do that, I now ask why are you so mad? Yeah, ask, why are you so mad? Why are you so sad that you have to take your own sadness or insecurities out on someone else? Like what is it? Can I help you talk?

James: 44:46

about that it's a much more, it's a much better way, it's a much more constructive way of kind of addressing things.

Steve: 44:53

It sure is I'm. I'm reading um. Is it Adam Grant's book Rethinking? What is this book Gosh? Now it escapes me. Hold on one second.

James: 45:02

Think Again.

Steve: 45:03

Think Again. Thank you, yes, just an amazing book that he talks about not only how to rethink what we already know, but also how to rethink how we communicate with those that we disagree with or with those that are acting like a jerk or saying something you know ridiculous. So anyway, didn't mean to uh digress there, but no, it's not, it's a really important.

James: 45:27

it's a really important, not even a tangent important like riff point. It's um, I think about now. Look, I think sometimes I don't say it, I'm not literal about certain things. I sort of like put things on a plate or on a tapestry and you let people sort of come to the conclusions when they're ready to sort of piece together things. And you know, do I think it's significant that I know I'm fast forwarding a little bit, but that I teach both at MIT and I chair entrepreneurship at Howard and people say, wow, that's cool, they don't. And then increasingly people like, wow, that's cool. And I'm like, yeah, you wouldn't put those two things together. But in my mind, why not? Like?

Steve: 46:15

makes sense, absolutely my mind. Why not like?

James: 46:17

makes sense, absolutely, and this story, of this story in the book, I would be. You know, I've I've talked about these principles in the story in red states, blue states, male, female, it doesn't matter, and people, yeah, like, yes, we feel the way, and that's the timing of the book release is not a coincidence. I would like for people to share it in a year that unnecessarily might fracture relationships, and I don't think it's necessary. I think there's agreed and so that's why it's coming out now and the tone that it's coming out and saying I think that we're all slightly better than this.

Steve: 47:06

Yes. So if we could continue on the let's see if on the Korean words that you used that I think are so appropriate, especially since we stopped the pause on the subject of the hardware store and you talk about two words, Han and Zhang Zhang Zhang.

James: 47:27

Yeah.

Steve: 47:27

J-E-O-N-G is Zhang, zhang, zhang. Okay, han and Zhang. What are Han and Zhang?

James: 47:35

Well, han is in English. It'd be sort of like generational trauma. It's anger like. It's like a bitterness, it's a relenting, unrelenting, like sorrow that you have like a chip on your shoulder. It's and um chong is what I did my TED Talk, about which the closest English word is called goodwill. Goodwill, yeah, your listeners, like Chung, like to visualize it. It's the scene that you cry at every Christmas when George Bailey gets bailed out by his Well, Mr Potter, come on.

James: 48:12

Yeah, like that's his wife showing george how much goodwill or chung he's created. And why did you try to kill yourself? Like look this, look at this asset you have? So that's chung. And then han is suffering and so, just like you know a lot of philosophies, I think buddhism really sort of emphasizes this. It's joy and suffering are hand in hand. And it just came up recently, right, you had um jensen huang, the video ceo talk about. He looks for people. The culture of nvidia is based oh yeah, it's based on suffering. That you want people who, um have kind of low expectations about the finer things, but they've been through it, they're resilient, and that they find solutions, and that it's people get their hands dirty, which is one of the reasons why I really like spending time in mit, because it's not pontificating, it's the, it's it's mind and hand. They make things you create right and it's. I think that we all could do a better job creating solutions versus um talking about them like sure to do it. And and that's why I mentioned a lot.

James: 49:33

To loop back to kindness, kindness is not an intent, it's an action, like right, you have to do it, and so it's this book. In many ways, it's like you know. You know how much I love Bruce Springsteen. It's an anthem, it's a call to action. Yeah, so that's what. That's what chung and han are, and I think it eliminates a lot of toxic positivity and toxic optimism for your entrepreneurs that everything's supposed to go great, growth is supposed to be linear, you're supposed to win all the time. And I'm always like what la la land do you live in?

Steve: 50:13

in fact I grew up watching my dad would show us he worked for at&t for 35 years and he would bring home on real-to-reel tape videos of Vince Lombardi. And winning isn't everything, it's the only thing. And win at all costs. And there are positive messages in there that blocking and tackling in football is a lot like blocking and tackling in life, doing the fundamentals. And so there are a lot of positive messages. But you're right, it was all about winning.

Steve: 50:40

Winning is everything and there's an element of toxicity when we live our lives in that realm and, to your point, there's so much gray area in there and the more we can connect to the intuition, the Chong in our lives, so much better the world is. And I love another passage if I could read that you said quote Chong refers to a connectedness infused with love, empathy, warmth, compassion and friendship. But it's more than that. Chong is a statement of interdependence, of mutual coexistence, of cooperative living. Though it can go too far, there is such a thing as bad Chong. There is no English equivalent, as you just mentioned, and as is in your TED Talk as well, but I think the closest English word is goodwill and an example of that that you gave in the book and this is one of about three or four areas in the book where I got choked up, darn it. And you told the story of your older brother. It came to Christmastime and he didn't believe in Christmas anymore, and so your parents only got him one gift, and it was not a good gift.

Steve: 52:03

That's not good, yeah. And so the next year you went out and got him Zeppelin IV for Christmas, which is just a classic album, just a classic album. And you talk about that. That that was like the greatest gift you ever gave and and the warmth that it, that it, that it gave in your, in your chest, that that you can't put a price on that. And you've said to this day, is it still the best gift you've ever given?

James: 52:34

Still the best gift I've ever given. It's the red helicopter still the best gift I've ever given. Still the best gift I've ever given. It's the red helicopter still the best gift I've ever received.

James: 52:40

Wow, and that Zeppelin IV album yeah, I was, I don't even know eight, nine. I saved up pennies and nickels and my brother and I were incredibly close. He really looked out for me. He was an incredible big brother really and really looked out for me. It was incredible Big brother really and yeah, and it was sad. He was sad and I didn't like seeing him sad. So I did my thing.

James: 53:03

I didn't tell anyone about it. It was like, it was methodical, like every day I would like comb the couch for Penny and Nichols and, and when he got that present, I'll never forget the look on his face. I'll never forget him hugging that album against his pajamas, like I can't. And so when I love zeppelin now you know I'm a big classic rock I listen to that song, I listen to black dog and I'm like that's what I think about and so chung goodwill, it takes you it literally like to sound like einstein. It bends space time. I think that great, not just memories, but great brands, great customs. It makes time not linear Right. It really it's the power of physics. It really takes you to a different place and music does that, art does that and that's why some of the most successful franchises in the commercial land really interested in brand building Think about it. Do you have the communications and the honesty and truth in your brand that people will bend space? It bends space time and if you can do that, it's a huge competitive advantage, wow.

Steve: 54:30

Wow, in your TED Talk and in the book, obviously, you talk a lot about just the simplicity of kindness plus math, and here you're walking into to save this. We've gotten this far deep in the conversation. How much business have we really talked about? How'd you grow your sales? And blah, blah, blah. And what about the blouses? And what about the plus size? You know it's. We've talked about humanity and but by injecting this kindness and math, but not only doing that, but showing that and being kindness, here you are a Korean guy walking into a store that's run by African-American women, plus-size women, and they're like how is he going to tell us? In fact, you even said that. You said I'm probably the worst person on the planet to run this company, but somehow kindness transcended all of the differences, the cultural differences, all the barriers came down and you got buy-in and you went in with humility and you talk about in the book that you learned every bit as much from them, if not more, than you taught them.

Steve: 55:54

Yes, as much from them, if not more than you taught them. And so we get to a point where I'm not this isn't any spoiler alert, because again, this isn't your TED Talk but where the companies you've essentially with you, and these remarkable women you've seen, and men, many wonderful men, obviously in the organization as well, but the company has been saved. You've gone through a reorg, you've moved the corporate office into a brand new building out of that stinky warehouse that you talk about. Still wasn't luxury. An employee that has worked his ass off for the previous many, many months or years, I can't remember but a solid leader in the organization. And after about a month of him whining about it, you said, hey, I found another office for you and it's in the parking lot. So let me know on Monday which office you want. And can you tell us what happened? Because I think this is an important little side note to this message.

James: 57:00

Yeah, kindness is not weak. I mean, this whole book shows you the strength of kindness. Like water, it's relentless and it's very direct. And so what were you know? Very, I love how you read this book and you know this book really. It makes me thank you, by the way, like you really have read the book and absorbed the book.

Steve: 57:24

Thank you, it meant so much to me. It's uh, it's, it's yeah, I if this is not hyperbole, really I'm just smiling inside.

James: 57:32

I was like there's one person and that's all it takes. It's like it was Steve, like it's like it's meaningful to you and so, yeah, I, this whole book is an exercise, kindness and math. It's about I, just you just want to find the truth. It's true, to say the truth. Let's, let's move on. Ok, I'm not perfect, I suck at this and I'm annoying when I do this. I'm good with that. I'm not saying I'm perfect.

James: 58:15

And so this guy, like kindness from a feedback perspective, like feedback loops we don't in anything that I'm involved with there's no like formal, once a year, performative. Like here's your review with a big, you know, you open up the scroll. It's like thou art wonderful at these things and you have areas of improvement here. It's like come on, just tell me. Hey, james, when you do this, it kind of sucks. Okay, thank you. You actually care enough about me to have an uncomfortable conversation, because if you don't care about someone, why would you right? It's uncomfortable. So this guy and there were others too um, it's meant to be metaphoric, but it did happen I said, yeah, like you're hurting other people now and I don't understand why, why you're about this. Like what we just did is a miracle. It's never happened before. It's unbrethren.

James: 58:58

And you're just upset about your office, and so I tend to do things. I always give people agency. He had a choice over the weekend to come back and say you know what? I'm being silly. I'm just happy we're here and we have a chance to do something remarkable. I'll take whatever office. I didn't have an office, or he did not change his mind and he could take an office in the parking lot, and that is I always give people agency. I'm like A or B up to you. So a lot of the things I'm involved with, people tend to kind of fire themselves, right, like I rarely will come in and say you're fired and someone will be surprised, right? It doesn't happen that way. It's very. Feedback is consistent, direct In systems, dynamics, languages. It's a lot of mini, mini feedback loops. It's constant.

James: 1:00:03

The Japanese have Toyota production system in terms of its continuous improvement. How can you continuously improve if feedback loops are once a year given by the legal department?

Steve: 1:00:17

Sure.

James: 1:00:18

It's not real feedback and if you come back to your mother as a high school teacher or as a teacher, teachers give feedback all the time. So I think great leaders and I'm not saying anything particularly original, I think great leaders are great teachers. I I've always thought that and the people that have made the most impact for me have, in the private sector, been great teachers. I've learned a lot from them and they wanted me to learn right, they wanted me to learn of course.

Steve: 1:00:47

Yeah, now, beautifully said, and I think it's it's. I would add that j, that I think this is another important point as well that from his perspective, if the focus is on and the belief is in the collective, the rewards are going to come. Like you said, we have an opportunity to do something great here. This is, and you're worried about an office, and I think that's a lesson from all of us as a reminder that to not lose sight of that. And he allowed in that critical moment of his life ego to you know, I want an office, I've worked hard, you know, and took his eye off the ball of everything. This whole book is about Everything about working from the heart, working from kindness. You know how connected we all are, the humanity. And taking that eye off the ball cost him millions of dollars.

James: 1:01:54

It did cost him millions of dollars, just like it's costing our society. Look at our from an economic standpoint right now, the cost of insurance. Insurance, which I harp on in this book. It is the intersection of human behavior and money. It's risk assessment, harp on in this book. It's the intersection of human behavior and money and you know it's risk assessment In this country right now. Look at the cost of like there's certain insurance companies that you can't even get insurance in certain states for certain residences. Look at the cost of auto insurance. When you have the demise of mutualism, the concept that we are all in it together, it's not just an emotional and civic thing, it's a very economic. There's a very negative economic consequence Living alone without the ability to include your risk in a broader insurance pool, risk pool, is very expensive.

James: 1:02:55

You better have a lot of money to have your own private bunker and private island then if that's the way you want to live and, by the way, that's what's happened, isn't it? That's what's happening.

Steve: 1:03:07

For sure, for sure. And if I could add to what you said about the insurance, I want to throw something out there for our entrepreneurs that are out there listening to this conversation, that still aren't buying into all of this kindness stuff. And you're more of the Jack Welch of straight from the gut run a chuffed ship, fire the bottom 10% every year. I think there's a lesson, there's so many lessons in this book, even if that is your mindset and to your point of what you were just mentioning. One of the things that you did when you came in is you replaced all the cheap yellow lights, these dim little lights, and replaced them with better quality lighting that shows up in your bottom line. But they were buying these cheap ass lights to try to save money. And you point out what is the cost of that when people can't see where they're walking, so they trip over the carpet and they sue your organization and your insurance rates go up because of workers' comp and it's just a spiral of all of that.

Steve: 1:04:09

So, anyway, I wanted to throw that in as well, because it's just good business to do that. So you're not just coming in. I want to make sure in this well, because it's just good business to do that. So you're not just coming in. I want to make sure in this conversation that we're just not thrown out there. You know, be kind and loving and you know. No, you still have to do business, you have to make business decisions, you have to pay attention to, you know, safety issues and whatnot. So anyway, I'm, you know, running off on that but please, that's what I'm throwing off on that.

James: 1:04:35

Can I jump in right there, please? That's why I'm throwing it over to you right now For those listeners. So let me put out for a second my kind of private equity quant hat, and I've managed billions of dollars of money right. I teach this at MIT, so I'm going to put that voice on for a second, please.

James: 1:04:50

When you calculate your return on capital, your financial capital, when you're doing your IRR calculations, all this is. This is math. It's money in, money out, based on the trajectory of time. Okay, so that's what IRR is. You want to put as little money in as you can. You get the money back. The more money you get back in a shorter period of time, your rates of return are higher, and that's just money.

James: 1:05:20

We are defining capital in that formula, with just financial capital. So what I'm saying to the readers and to your listeners if I told you there was a way that you could do that formula and instead of just injecting financial capital, you were injecting social capital, the capital of like care, of relations, of course Doesn't. And if that had a financial return, which we all know intuitively it does, people work harder, they don't quit, right, they stay they. Your IRR mathematically has to be significantly higher and that's why in my investment life, from a time zero perspective, my returns have been over a hundred percent per year. It's insane. I'm not just counting, I'm investing money and capital and then I get back a lot of money. Like it makes mathematical sense, yeah.

Steve: 1:06:21

So I'm going to take that hat off now for a second.

James: 1:06:23

Yeah, no.

Steve: 1:06:24

And then you go on to say that leaders that are, you know, use the word that jump on the proverbial kindness bandwagon they often fail to comprehend that the math, the accounting and the operations all have to be in alignment as well.

James: 1:06:39

Yeah, and I'm spending a lot of time right now in pedagogy with business school and college academic leaders. I mean, we know you mentioned the Jack Welch School and, not to speak illy of Jack Welch, he accomplished a lot of things. Overrated, though, in my opinion Good to great when they did a survey or they did the numbers.

Steve: 1:07:03

Jack Welch. He was a loud, boisterous same with Lee Iacocca. Loud and boisterous and people think they were great, but when you really look at the math they weren't so great, sorry.

James: 1:07:13

No, you're right. I mean it's being all recalibrated. There are a lot of business schools that have been based on that and when you look at the numbers, maybe not right. And then how about just also societal slash, collateral impact? There are a lot of ways in which our society today is better than it was 50-something years ago. Right, I'm 53.

James: 1:07:35

And the book sort of looks at 1971 to 2024. Are we better off in other ways? Suicide, mental health, loneliness, national debt, stock ownership distribution, home ownership distribution, stock ownership distribution, home ownership distribution, hate, sure, are we better off? And how are we measuring that? Because GDP it doesn't capture that. It doesn't, and that's the other way to think about things. And I just know, speaking more on a personal level, the type of life that I want to have. You know, I buried both my parents and this is not profound. I mean, we all know this. I've seen the end of life, I've seen it and I don't want to die in a way that is embarrassing to my children, like I want my children to experience what I did, which was for them to say you know my dad, he was a decent man, he had a lot of friends, that's it. That's the gift that my children will get.

James: 1:08:46

And they're going to have to work for, like anything, they got to work for it.

Steve: 1:08:53

Wow, you talk in the book and obviously in your TED Talk as well, a lot and we've mentioned in this conversation goodwill and what exactly that is, and I love that you actually inject and it's like a handwritten note in the book a balance sheet of hidden assets and hidden liabilities. And in the hidden assets column you've got relationships, hobbies, family, time to daydream, freedom, health, sense of humor, agility, wellness and the hidden liabilities back pain, ulcer, drinking problems, insomnia which I've had throughout my life at certain points fear, anger, jealousy, feelings of inadequacy. Can you talk about that?

James: 1:09:43

Yeah, I mean, who doesn't have any of these things? I mean come on, it's like the way that accounting works like real account, like gap, like business accounting.

Steve: 1:09:57

Generally accepted accounting principles for those scoring at home.

James: 1:10:01

Yeah, you don't book these as liabilities because they're not measurable, sure, and so the more and more we're using work and business terminology and definitions to define our personal lives, that means you would be primed to not measure these negative things. But let's be real. These things suck and, by the way, these things have serious financial implications down the road on you. These are unbooked liabilities. So the right way to do it? You've got to capitalize these liabilities and they hit your income statement. That's the right way to do this. It's got to capitalize these liabilities and they hit your income statement. That's the right way to do this. It's kind of like you know my wife's the CEO of a Cure Alzheimer's organization called Cure Alzheimer's. I'm wearing the sweatshirt now, advertisement for Cure Alzheimer's. They're awesome. 501c3. Think about the billions and billions, tens of hundreds of billions of dollars of off-balance sheet liabilities our country has on future Alzheimer's care and the patients. Seriously, it's not booked in GDP, but this isn't just about care.

James: 1:11:11

There's real financial consequence there, sure is. Yeah, it's money and we're all if you don't measure things correctly. There's a big difference between math, which is a science, and measurement right. Measurements are choice of what we're measuring. Math is a science, Sure is. I'm asking people, let's be honest about the math. Accounting is just made up up it's completely made up.

James: 1:11:37

Yeah right, like it's. Like, oh, accounting says we should do this. I was like who said, yeah, accountants, I'm like, well, what about science and math? Like those are true. So I, who doesn't have these? Like I, I it's, we all have these things that we say, oh, there's no cost to it, there's no cost. I was like, oh, there's always a cost, there's always a cost to it there, sure as hell is.

Steve: 1:12:07

Well, I know I'm going to have to jump really forward because I know we're pressed for time. You've got a hard stop in a few moments, so if we could jump to I know we're pressed for time, you've got a hard stop in a few moments, so if we could jump to. You know you had mentioned that unfortunately, you've lost both your parents and this was a story that you tell in the book that really touched me. And it was the day that your dad died and Meg, your wife, called you and she was with your daughter and she said did your dad just die? And she knew because she was with your daughter Lila, and in fact your, your daughter Lila, I'll, I'll turn this over to you. She had just been in an accident, correct?

James: 1:12:52

Yeah, and she's perfectly fine now. Now, but she almost was not. She almost died that week. And I'm not going to spoil that part of the story and when you all read it you're all going to just bite your teeth like your tongue, because you realize how far sometimes we do dumb things because the lawyers tell us to do done seriously, we do anyway. So like, yeah, she was in the hospital and my wife and my youngest child was not able to be with me and my two other kids with my father when he died.

James: 1:13:24

And but meg, who's a scientist, yeah, she called and said your dad died, didn't he? And I said, yeah, how did you know? Like we were in hospice care. And she says I just knew because for the first time all week, lila's not in pain. And she just smiled and she called and she told me that. And we both just sat there in silence. Look, I'm not a voodoo, superstitious guy and my wife certainly is not right. My wife is like an empiricist. But we just sat there and just in silence and said that's exactly what happened.

James: 1:13:59

My dad, who was trapped inside his body for 14 years, who took care and saved tens of thousands of lives as a pediatrician. Yeah, he came and visited my daughter. I know he did, I. I just I know he did and she knew it too. And can I put that in a spreadsheet? No, can I prove that to your listeners. No, um, does it sound perhaps a little kooky? And some people are going to say this guy's freaking office kilter.

James: 1:14:25

Yeah, perhaps I, we just both knew, and so it's sort of just some of the things in life I've discovered that have been the most beautiful moments for me. It's sort of just some of the things in life I've discovered that have been the most beautiful moments for me have been the ones that are the least quantifiable, the least explainable. Sure, and it's just a reminder to approach life with a fair degree of humility, like there's so much beauty. You don't want to control everything and dominate everything. It's like you just let things happen. I think, like even this thing with you, this conversation with you, this we met, you know, a year ago, kind of randomly. We had a really lovely conversation about music. There was no, there's no agenda for it, right, just sort of like, hey, okay, and then a year later, here we are, and I prefer to live my life like that.

Steve: 1:15:18

Yeah, and you know what, james? The reason why I wanted to point out that story is because I spent so much of my life being a big skeptic, even though skeptical about everything the afterlife, even though when I look back now I see all these amazing experiences that happened in my life that I chalked up to coincidences.

Steve: 1:15:39

But over the last 10 years I've had so many experiences, just like you and Meg had, and it wasn't like, oh my gosh, I think that this happened, or that somebody came to me that has passed, or what have you happened, or that somebody came to me that has passed, or what have you. It wasn't any of that, it was. That's what happened. It's a knowing when it does happen. And so this book to me is also. This is a spiritual book as well, and spirituality is all about connectedness. And then you go on to talk about the number of the room that your father was in room 202, the hospice room and that was the number of your mom and dad's apartment when you first lived in the Bronx, and your mom's birthday is 202, and yours is 220. And those to me me are not coincidences. And I believe after and then, when your mom then passed and she went to hospice, didn't they reel her into the exact same room?

James: 1:16:45

same room. And what's not in the book is that the day that I miraculously pulled this company out of certain liquidation in 2014. It was April 22nd.

Steve: 1:17:01

Really.

James: 1:17:02

Yeah, I didn't put that in the book, because after a while it's like, okay, come on yeah. It's just sort of I just smile now about things like whether it's coincidences or patterns, and a lot of the book is about patterns and we're not going to have time to talk about fractals. Maybe the next time. I know you had an expert fractal guest and um but I love it when it came to that section.

Steve: 1:17:28

But yes, that'll be another discussion.

James: 1:17:30

It's just fractals and like the music that, um, you know, I know you're a music guy. So like the music that, um, you know, I know you're a music guy. So like the music, the in music, the fractals, these simple patterns that repeat, which create chaos. Actually, right, it's chaos theory. Uh, is a fugue, right, a fugue in like row, row your boat, you know when you sing it in rounds as a kid gently down the stream.

Steve: 1:17:50

Yeah and row, yeah, and then you keep doing it around and around, and this simple little thing creates this voluminous, like tapestry of sound and so like the book.

James: 1:18:02

I remember when I was pitching the book and people wanted me to write a pure business book and I'm like, I'm not going to write that, there's plenty of business. But the editor that I finally heard me, she just said I said to her this is basically a fugue. The book is a circle of patterns and it should be comforting to the readers, just like nature, the fractals in nature, are comforting to us. I hope that when people read this they'll find comfort and in that comfort like, they'll refine and really tap into the courage. I know that they all have to make the change that they want to make right To, sort of say, being a kind person. It has to be a positive thing, it has to be.

Steve: 1:18:51

Right.

James: 1:18:52

It just and I hope that on the accounting stuff, stuff, I eviscerate accounting a little bit. In the book I get it, but it does need a leap of faith to sort of realize that accounting primes you to do not great things sometimes sure?

Steve: 1:19:08

yeah, well, we are out of time. So this leads me to our final question what advice do you have for us and our listeners on how we can help make the world a better place?

James: 1:19:20

I think my advice would be so, like, without just saying kindness and math, it's to think about your life as the signs in the national park. The signs in the national park when it says, um, you pack in, pack out and you don't leave waste, you take it out. Um, and in economics terms, that would be positive and negative externalities. Right, like, just try to make decisions, do things that at worst, it's pack in, pack out, you're not creating negative externalities. But maybe even better, like, if you're able to create a positive externality, like in a park, it would be like planting a flower leave it better than you found leave it better, and so it's so simple.

James: 1:20:11

And, as we talk about in the book, simple is really hard and we second guess ourselves and think, oh, it's supposed to be so complicated. And I want to sound smart. I want to. I'm like you know.

Steve: 1:20:23

What would my five-year-old self do? Yeah, like share your lunch. Hand over part of my lunch, exactly.

James: 1:20:29

Share the lunch. Yeah.

Steve: 1:20:31

James. It has been an absolute honor and a privilege. Thank you so, so much for being here For our listeners. You can go to redhelicoptercom to learn more about James and we will put his social media handles in the episode notes. And once again, the shout out to your wife's the Alzheimer's Association. What was that again?

James: 1:20:51

Cure Alzheimer's.

Steve: 1:20:53

Cure Alzheimer's. So we'll put that URL in the episode notes as well. James, I skipped about four and a half pages of notes. We ran out of time.

James: 1:21:02

How about we do it again? I know we have a hard stop, but if you will have me, I will pop back on. We'll finish this conversation.

Steve: 1:21:10

That would be amazing. I would love it. We'll do that, james. Thanks so much. Take care now. Thanks, man. It was great seeing you. Stay tuned next week for part two. Special thanks to our producer, noah Existe, and editor Joe Tempoco. Our music was written and performed by Alguien Importante. Thank you so much for listening. If this podcast brightened your day in any way, please share it with a friend who you think it might resonate with. Subscribe and leave us a rating and review, as that is the single best way to help the show and get the word out to more good humans. For behind the scenes info, please visit our website at betterplaceprojectorg, where you can even click on the microphone in the lower right hand corner and leave us a message, or just stop by to say hi, and you can follow us on Instagram at Better Place Praj, and you'll find me at Instagram at Steve Norris Official. Look for small ways to be kind this week, and that will help make the world a better place. Make the world a better place. Make the world a better place.